Thank you.
I think as it doesn't make too much of a difference to the observed layout and signalling, I'll operate it however I feel at the time. Probably more the prototypical way when I'm operating it manually. The layout can also be run entirely automatically by an Arduino and there's only limited space in the fiddle yard, so shunting the DMU from its siding in the fiddle yard to the down line is something the Arduino won't be able to handle without an awful lot of extra components being installed and code written. This means for Arduino control, running bang road is the only way to use platform 3.
Question about operations on my layout / signal positions
Re: Question about operations on my layout / signal positions
Also, for the platform 3 starter and shunt signal, I'm thinking of adding a dummy disk signal to the post of a Dapol motorised signal. Does that sound about right?
Here's one at Sheringham that I'm basing the idea off.
Here's one at Sheringham that I'm basing the idea off.
Re: Question about operations on my layout / signal positions
Oh dear!!!
Read post #1 in full before making statements re era being modelled!! 
Sorry for confusion!!
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Ancient Bear
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Re: Question about operations on my layout / signal positions
Hi 
Looking through this topic I see an "issue" at the start. You propose to run a branch train "Bang Road" Down the Up Line from an off scene junction (an unknown distance away). This is extremely unlikely to have occurred in the 1950s - especially with Absolute Block and Semaphore signalling. It would have been too complicated/expensive for the interlocking at your location and the junction. The MoT would have been extremely unlikely to have approved it anyway.
What I would suggest would be far more likely would be that the junction would have the single line branch become double line (usually a goods train length before the fouling point). The junction itself would then be a normal Double Junction.
Trains from the branch would work to the Down Line and run (Right Direction) to the station. Having terminated it would shunt to platform 3 - or (less likely) 2. It would then head off Right Line for the junction.
It looks like you have room to add a (dead end)bay platform (platform 0) on the Down side - if the traffic would be too limited by a Branch train terminating in platform 1.
Platform 1 need only be as long as platform 2 and does not have to match it sideways - it can drag "down" to ease the entry into a bay platform.
Unfortunately adding a Bay would mean some juggling/relocating of points. This is because you would want a terminated train to be able to shunt over to the Up Line and then back into platform 3. This arrangement was common around the country.
A different arrangement would be to start back in traffic from platform 0 (requiring a Running/Stop signal) - and make platform 3 road part of the yard. This would require an FPL for the crossover from Down to Up main. There would be no essential need for platform 0 to be trapped - provided no stock was left unattended in it at any time. (Saves you a set of points and an FPL).
Apologies for this response requiring some possible change of track layout - it would be worthwhile.
"Adjustment" would shift the pointwork in the Up direction. This would tend to shorten your present headshunt - although there is space to extend it. Equally it would enable your sidings to be lengthened.
Personally I would swing the left hand siding over and through the goods shed. This would give more vehicle space between sidings and look better. (I'd avoid the temptation to fill the space with a crane).
Looking through this topic I see an "issue" at the start. You propose to run a branch train "Bang Road" Down the Up Line from an off scene junction (an unknown distance away). This is extremely unlikely to have occurred in the 1950s - especially with Absolute Block and Semaphore signalling. It would have been too complicated/expensive for the interlocking at your location and the junction. The MoT would have been extremely unlikely to have approved it anyway.
What I would suggest would be far more likely would be that the junction would have the single line branch become double line (usually a goods train length before the fouling point). The junction itself would then be a normal Double Junction.
Trains from the branch would work to the Down Line and run (Right Direction) to the station. Having terminated it would shunt to platform 3 - or (less likely) 2. It would then head off Right Line for the junction.
It looks like you have room to add a (dead end)bay platform (platform 0) on the Down side - if the traffic would be too limited by a Branch train terminating in platform 1.
Platform 1 need only be as long as platform 2 and does not have to match it sideways - it can drag "down" to ease the entry into a bay platform.
Unfortunately adding a Bay would mean some juggling/relocating of points. This is because you would want a terminated train to be able to shunt over to the Up Line and then back into platform 3. This arrangement was common around the country.
A different arrangement would be to start back in traffic from platform 0 (requiring a Running/Stop signal) - and make platform 3 road part of the yard. This would require an FPL for the crossover from Down to Up main. There would be no essential need for platform 0 to be trapped - provided no stock was left unattended in it at any time. (Saves you a set of points and an FPL).
Apologies for this response requiring some possible change of track layout - it would be worthwhile.
"Adjustment" would shift the pointwork in the Up direction. This would tend to shorten your present headshunt - although there is space to extend it. Equally it would enable your sidings to be lengthened.
Personally I would swing the left hand siding over and through the goods shed. This would give more vehicle space between sidings and look better. (I'd avoid the temptation to fill the space with a crane).
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Ancient Bear
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Re: Question about operations on my layout / signal positions
Signalling...
Assuming Absolute Block and Semaphore signals. This is most likely for the 1950s. (It's also much more fun).
Also assuming that you don't run "Bang Road" from the junction...
1. Adding a Down Bay (not essential) would add the points and an FPL. Being Midland/LMS this might be an Economic FPL - meaning that the FPL worked with the points saving a lever in the frame. Platform 0 would need a bracket Stop Signal into the Bay at the Down Home. Exit from the Bay would be by a shunt signal across to the Up Main. (I'm going to ignore what happens if you work back in traffic from platform 0).
2. An Up Main shunt to platforms 0,1,2 could be a very nice LMS 3 stack standard shunt. I would then use a 2 stack shunt between the headshunt points and the Facing connection for platform 3 and the sidings.
Because the sidings/headshunt combine with the platform 3 arrangement both should be provided with a Trap/Catch arrangement to protect the Passenger Running Line of platform 3. To save bother this might be achieved by using Derails worked by the Box... Unusual - but not impossible. (A derail is a ramp type short fitting that the Box lifts on/off the rail by a lever in the frame. Both might arguably be worked by the one lever).
3.Signals from platforms 2 and 3. Given the position of the sidings points I would tend to put the platform 2 Running Signal on a right hand bracket out over the centre of the Up Line. To keep it away and distinct I would then put the platform 3 Running Signal on a left hand bracket out over the centre of the platform 3 track. The Up Main signal arm should be higher than the Bay arm.
If you were to make the Up Main signal a high arm for sighting it might have a repeater arm low on the main structure of the bracket assembly - but this gets complicated. It would need shielding so that it would not be mis-read from platform 3.
Platform 3 Running signal would also have a shunt signal to the headshunt. This would tend to be at the base of and in front of the main structure of the bracket - it might possibly be a little way up the structure on a bracket on the face of the structure.
4. I would guess that you would not want the junction to be too close to your station... This is because you do not want to need to add Slotted Distant signals to your Stop signals from platforms 2 and 3.
If you choose to have an Up Advanced Starter on scene this might have a Slotted Distant for the junction. The LMS doesn't appear that likely to have included a Slotted Distant for the Branch - unless the start of the Branch was a horrible climb on a tight curve - which would warrant a worked Splitting Distant ... Making that in N gauge should be fun!
Assuming working the Branch with Electric Token Block (ETB) this would be done at the junction and nothing to do with your station.
Assuming Absolute Block and Semaphore signals. This is most likely for the 1950s. (It's also much more fun).
Also assuming that you don't run "Bang Road" from the junction...
1. Adding a Down Bay (not essential) would add the points and an FPL. Being Midland/LMS this might be an Economic FPL - meaning that the FPL worked with the points saving a lever in the frame. Platform 0 would need a bracket Stop Signal into the Bay at the Down Home. Exit from the Bay would be by a shunt signal across to the Up Main. (I'm going to ignore what happens if you work back in traffic from platform 0).
2. An Up Main shunt to platforms 0,1,2 could be a very nice LMS 3 stack standard shunt. I would then use a 2 stack shunt between the headshunt points and the Facing connection for platform 3 and the sidings.
Because the sidings/headshunt combine with the platform 3 arrangement both should be provided with a Trap/Catch arrangement to protect the Passenger Running Line of platform 3. To save bother this might be achieved by using Derails worked by the Box... Unusual - but not impossible. (A derail is a ramp type short fitting that the Box lifts on/off the rail by a lever in the frame. Both might arguably be worked by the one lever).
3.Signals from platforms 2 and 3. Given the position of the sidings points I would tend to put the platform 2 Running Signal on a right hand bracket out over the centre of the Up Line. To keep it away and distinct I would then put the platform 3 Running Signal on a left hand bracket out over the centre of the platform 3 track. The Up Main signal arm should be higher than the Bay arm.
If you were to make the Up Main signal a high arm for sighting it might have a repeater arm low on the main structure of the bracket assembly - but this gets complicated. It would need shielding so that it would not be mis-read from platform 3.
Platform 3 Running signal would also have a shunt signal to the headshunt. This would tend to be at the base of and in front of the main structure of the bracket - it might possibly be a little way up the structure on a bracket on the face of the structure.
4. I would guess that you would not want the junction to be too close to your station... This is because you do not want to need to add Slotted Distant signals to your Stop signals from platforms 2 and 3.
If you choose to have an Up Advanced Starter on scene this might have a Slotted Distant for the junction. The LMS doesn't appear that likely to have included a Slotted Distant for the Branch - unless the start of the Branch was a horrible climb on a tight curve - which would warrant a worked Splitting Distant ... Making that in N gauge should be fun!
Assuming working the Branch with Electric Token Block (ETB) this would be done at the junction and nothing to do with your station.
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Ancient Bear
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Re: Question about operations on my layout / signal positions
By the way... You need an FPL going out of platform 3 to the Up Main or the Headshunt.
Position of Signalbox...
"Strictly" it should be next to the Running Line - i.e. on the Down Side. With a conventional MR / LMS / BR-LMR "front frame" this would put the frame right way round for your viewing position of the layout = #1 lever for the Up Distant at the left hand end as you look at it.
You might opt to have had the MR/LMR box bombed and replaced by an LMS ARP (aka "bombproof") brick and concrete box - with a "back frame" - this would keep the lever numbering the same way round.
Again "strictly" a box shouldn't have a siding - especially one involved with active shunting - between the box and the Running Lines... However, as you are not dealing with any ETB tokens this is less significant.
What you might gain is an EDP (Emergency Detonator Placer) on each of the Up and Down Running Lines - a lever each - these might be in a separate sub frame in the box - or probably mid frame in the main frame.
Another "by the way"... If your store (ie. "Berth") stock in the headshunt - you will limit or block shunting in it... However - a yard this small is only likely to be shunted once a day - or less... Something that you might do is temporarily berth your DMMU (or earlier push-pull train) in the (trap-point protected) headshunt during times of the day when the Branch doesn't need it - or is occupied by goods train working. This would enable the passenger stock to be left unattended. Berthing might also be overnight.
Position of Signalbox...
"Strictly" it should be next to the Running Line - i.e. on the Down Side. With a conventional MR / LMS / BR-LMR "front frame" this would put the frame right way round for your viewing position of the layout = #1 lever for the Up Distant at the left hand end as you look at it.
You might opt to have had the MR/LMR box bombed and replaced by an LMS ARP (aka "bombproof") brick and concrete box - with a "back frame" - this would keep the lever numbering the same way round.
Again "strictly" a box shouldn't have a siding - especially one involved with active shunting - between the box and the Running Lines... However, as you are not dealing with any ETB tokens this is less significant.
What you might gain is an EDP (Emergency Detonator Placer) on each of the Up and Down Running Lines - a lever each - these might be in a separate sub frame in the box - or probably mid frame in the main frame.
Another "by the way"... If your store (ie. "Berth") stock in the headshunt - you will limit or block shunting in it... However - a yard this small is only likely to be shunted once a day - or less... Something that you might do is temporarily berth your DMMU (or earlier push-pull train) in the (trap-point protected) headshunt during times of the day when the Branch doesn't need it - or is occupied by goods train working. This would enable the passenger stock to be left unattended. Berthing might also be overnight.
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Ancient Bear
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Re: Question about operations on my layout / signal positions
Realising that you might well choose to happily ignore my previous suggestions...
I noticed your question about platforms under bridges. This could enable you to add a short Down bay platform without changing the points already laid.
The idea is to push the Down Platform (1) in the Down direction under the bridge - making room for points into the Bay. These points could be quite sharp as movement into the Bay should be slow - to hopefully stop short of the buffers! A shunt back out would also be slow.
It would mean creating a longer girder bridge. Platforms are required to be a minimum of 6 feet deep - preferably a bit more.
Saying that - an island platform (3/3) has a required minimum depth (side to side) of 10 feet - preferably more. This would also apply to Platforms 0/1. However - if the layout/station is very old the MR might have got away with a bit less than 10 feet - if nothing else possibly tapering toward the ramp end.
Wider platforms make it easier to fit in signal posts. I would tend to be looking for LMS/LMR tubular steel posts/brackets for most if not all signals - especially around the Box if you go for the ARP option.
The shunt from platform 0 to Up Main would probably be on the Cess side of the track , possibly on a short post to raise it to aid sighting for the push-back out of the platform... Pushing ("Propelling" - driver at the tail end guard at the front acting as eyes for the driver) because once out onto the Up Line the next move is back onto platform stops and this would be done with the driver at the front end. This applies to both push-pull (whichever end the loco is( and DMMU.
There would also be a shunt Down Line to Up Line in the 6foot way clear of the Fouling Point of the track from platform 0.
Back at the platform extending under the bridge... This would move the Stop Signal beyond the bridge to the end of the platform or beyond. To provide sighting there would then probably be a Banner Repeater immediately before the bridge. (I have no idea if there are banner repeaters available in N... If you made a subsidiary signal you would have less trouble making a banner repeater).
Of course the GWR/WR would have used an SB Stop signal for the exit from platform 3 - making it much easier to differentiate that signal from the platform 2 signal... But then - the GWR were always far more sensible than the other three...
Going to the other end of the layout... Your Up "Starting" signal could be off scene beyond the bridge - once more with a banner repeater. Having succeeded with the Down Banner repeater you could get really smart with this one and have a banner Stop over a banner Distant for the junction - and even two banner Distants if the junction warrants a worked Splitting Distant.
I noticed your question about platforms under bridges. This could enable you to add a short Down bay platform without changing the points already laid.
The idea is to push the Down Platform (1) in the Down direction under the bridge - making room for points into the Bay. These points could be quite sharp as movement into the Bay should be slow - to hopefully stop short of the buffers! A shunt back out would also be slow.
It would mean creating a longer girder bridge. Platforms are required to be a minimum of 6 feet deep - preferably a bit more.
Saying that - an island platform (3/3) has a required minimum depth (side to side) of 10 feet - preferably more. This would also apply to Platforms 0/1. However - if the layout/station is very old the MR might have got away with a bit less than 10 feet - if nothing else possibly tapering toward the ramp end.
Wider platforms make it easier to fit in signal posts. I would tend to be looking for LMS/LMR tubular steel posts/brackets for most if not all signals - especially around the Box if you go for the ARP option.
The shunt from platform 0 to Up Main would probably be on the Cess side of the track , possibly on a short post to raise it to aid sighting for the push-back out of the platform... Pushing ("Propelling" - driver at the tail end guard at the front acting as eyes for the driver) because once out onto the Up Line the next move is back onto platform stops and this would be done with the driver at the front end. This applies to both push-pull (whichever end the loco is( and DMMU.
There would also be a shunt Down Line to Up Line in the 6foot way clear of the Fouling Point of the track from platform 0.
Back at the platform extending under the bridge... This would move the Stop Signal beyond the bridge to the end of the platform or beyond. To provide sighting there would then probably be a Banner Repeater immediately before the bridge. (I have no idea if there are banner repeaters available in N... If you made a subsidiary signal you would have less trouble making a banner repeater).
Of course the GWR/WR would have used an SB Stop signal for the exit from platform 3 - making it much easier to differentiate that signal from the platform 2 signal... But then - the GWR were always far more sensible than the other three...
Going to the other end of the layout... Your Up "Starting" signal could be off scene beyond the bridge - once more with a banner repeater. Having succeeded with the Down Banner repeater you could get really smart with this one and have a banner Stop over a banner Distant for the junction - and even two banner Distants if the junction warrants a worked Splitting Distant.
Re: Question about operations on my layout / signal positions
A huge lot of information being presented. Well done for a lot of insight and information.
But the OP posted the question well over two years ago! So its highly likely they will have undertaken modelling steps at that time!
But the information is good to have.
But the OP posted the question well over two years ago! So its highly likely they will have undertaken modelling steps at that time!
But the information is good to have.
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Ancient Bear
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Re: Question about operations on my layout / signal positions
OOPS!!!
I thought that the latest posts were at least this month...
Anyway - I love waffling - and the notes might be useful for other people looking at developing a similar layout.
The Forum seems to have been horribly quiet for some time. A great pity.
I thought that the latest posts were at least this month...
Anyway - I love waffling - and the notes might be useful for other people looking at developing a similar layout.
The Forum seems to have been horribly quiet for some time. A great pity.
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