Just starting out
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Just starting out
Hello everyone, I've just registered as your site shows every indication I can gain a lot from people with more expertise than myself. A little about what my intentions are. I have based my layout plan on a track which appeared over 20 years ago by Hornby which has a great deal of sidings/turntable in the centre and that is my main focus of attention before I start the basic fixing and wiring.
I recently watched a video cast by a well known shop and that struck a chord with me concerning the probability that short wheel-based locos shunting in sidings could easily 'stick' when crossing the 'V' when Insulfrog points are used. So that's my first question to members: When using R612 & R613 standard Hornby points, which Electrofrog points should I (if deemed essential) be aiming to obtain in their place? I also believe that I would need to purchase additional rail joiners from/to Electrofrog points so that the current to my other normal track flows properly.
So a pretty basic question by my way of thinking, but I want to get things right before making a real hash and need to undo it all. I have added an image of the track in the sidings area as it appears in the Plan book.
I recently watched a video cast by a well known shop and that struck a chord with me concerning the probability that short wheel-based locos shunting in sidings could easily 'stick' when crossing the 'V' when Insulfrog points are used. So that's my first question to members: When using R612 & R613 standard Hornby points, which Electrofrog points should I (if deemed essential) be aiming to obtain in their place? I also believe that I would need to purchase additional rail joiners from/to Electrofrog points so that the current to my other normal track flows properly.
So a pretty basic question by my way of thinking, but I want to get things right before making a real hash and need to undo it all. I have added an image of the track in the sidings area as it appears in the Plan book.
- bulleidboy
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Re: Just starting out
Hi Hoe Street
Welcome to the forum. As your talking electro-frog points, can you confirm whether your layout will be DCC or analogue?
Personally, if you have the space, I would use the Peco SL-E95(R/h) and SL-E96(L/h) points - these are "medium", so slightly bigger than "small" - but not a lot. You might find it helpful to download the fullsize templates and see how they fit in with your space/layout - all Peco points, crossings etc., are available to download. BB
Welcome to the forum. As your talking electro-frog points, can you confirm whether your layout will be DCC or analogue?
Personally, if you have the space, I would use the Peco SL-E95(R/h) and SL-E96(L/h) points - these are "medium", so slightly bigger than "small" - but not a lot. You might find it helpful to download the fullsize templates and see how they fit in with your space/layout - all Peco points, crossings etc., are available to download. BB
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Re: Just starting out
Apologies I didn't confirm the basics in first post - it will be Analogue system. Thanks for your contact.
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- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:46 pm
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Re: Just starting out
Hi BB and thanks for your early guidance. Good to receive the notice of Track ref in respect of Peco Electrofrog. Is it your opinion that I should use Electro style to accommodate smooth running within the sidings. Dont mind a direct opinion from someone who knows the pitfalls. Plus the issue I also raised about some special joiners for the Electro points to standard Hornby track. these would also be necessary? Thanks again for all contributions.
- bulleidboy
- Posts: 2310
- Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:30 pm
- Location: Basingstoke, Hants
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Re: Just starting out
The points I mentioned are Code 100 which is the same as Hornby track. So (I think) normal rail joiners (fishplates) will do. Hornby points are self-isolating (power only in direction point set to), whereas Peco electrofrog points are live no matter how set. You may require insulated fishplates (there plastic) and would totally isolate the track onwards from the point where installed. There are some simple modifications that can be made to Peco points which makes them even better than standard - there is power to every piece of rail - so small loco's should not stall. Which year/edition Plans book is your layout in - I have a number, going back years, but could not find it. I'm sure someone will add to what I have said. The most important thing is to plan in advance. If your having "live" points you will need to isolate all of the sidings - a slight benefit of DCC - you instruct one loco to move - the other loco's do not .
I've just found the plan - Hornby 5H (no idea of year)
I've just found the plan - Hornby 5H (no idea of year)
Re: Just starting out
Firstly welcome to the forum. We hope to read more of your layout build progress
To note and importantly, Hornby do not make any Electrofrog points, all are Insulated frog. They are an identical match to Peco Setrack range (ST prefixed) which also has all its points available only as Insulated frog. Both Hornby and Peco Setrack automatically set the parallel track centres to 67mm and are fully interchangeable. Both use Code 100 rail profile.
Now comes Peco Streamline track sold in flexible lengths only and points sold in both Insulated frog and Electrofrog versions (SL or SL-E prefixed). These automatically space parallel track centres to 50mm So are much closer than Hornby or Peco Setrack. Streamline in OO is available in Code 100 and Code 75 rail profile. Finally on Streamline track none of these points are a direct drop in replacement for any Hornby or Peco Setrack points. Streamline is much larger overall even the small Streamline turnout is larger and the radius (angle) of the turnout is far shallower than any of the Hornby or Peco Setrack points
So like for like Hornby to Peco Setrack is fine but to Peco Streamline there are large difference. You need to be aware of this rather than spending money and find a point doesn't fit.
Finally, when using Electrofrog points my recommendation is to always fit two Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJs) to the ends of the points Vee rails. Then add new rail feeds of the correct polarity to the rails after the IRJs. While in some cases you can get away without fitting IRJs such as into dead end sidings I always fit them and add feeds, as if you don't fit and then alter the track plan later on you can easily end up with a short circuit and a lot of head scratching trying to locate the problem! All Electrofrog points (except the Electrofrog three way and Double Slip/Single Slip) can be used directly from the box.
Many Electrofrog users will enhance the points electrical performance by adding frog polarity switching, often via the point motors movement and a change-over switch (SPDT) fitted to the motor, that switch flips the frog and Vee rails polarity. Thereby removing the reliance of the moving switch rails making good contact to the closure rails when the two are closed together either way.
To note and importantly, Hornby do not make any Electrofrog points, all are Insulated frog. They are an identical match to Peco Setrack range (ST prefixed) which also has all its points available only as Insulated frog. Both Hornby and Peco Setrack automatically set the parallel track centres to 67mm and are fully interchangeable. Both use Code 100 rail profile.
Now comes Peco Streamline track sold in flexible lengths only and points sold in both Insulated frog and Electrofrog versions (SL or SL-E prefixed). These automatically space parallel track centres to 50mm So are much closer than Hornby or Peco Setrack. Streamline in OO is available in Code 100 and Code 75 rail profile. Finally on Streamline track none of these points are a direct drop in replacement for any Hornby or Peco Setrack points. Streamline is much larger overall even the small Streamline turnout is larger and the radius (angle) of the turnout is far shallower than any of the Hornby or Peco Setrack points
So like for like Hornby to Peco Setrack is fine but to Peco Streamline there are large difference. You need to be aware of this rather than spending money and find a point doesn't fit.
Finally, when using Electrofrog points my recommendation is to always fit two Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJs) to the ends of the points Vee rails. Then add new rail feeds of the correct polarity to the rails after the IRJs. While in some cases you can get away without fitting IRJs such as into dead end sidings I always fit them and add feeds, as if you don't fit and then alter the track plan later on you can easily end up with a short circuit and a lot of head scratching trying to locate the problem! All Electrofrog points (except the Electrofrog three way and Double Slip/Single Slip) can be used directly from the box.
Many Electrofrog users will enhance the points electrical performance by adding frog polarity switching, often via the point motors movement and a change-over switch (SPDT) fitted to the motor, that switch flips the frog and Vee rails polarity. Thereby removing the reliance of the moving switch rails making good contact to the closure rails when the two are closed together either way.
Re: Just starting out
Hornby plan 5H (along with many others) is now available here: https://freetrackplans.com/hornby-plan-5h.html#
Welcome to the forum! You're right, you will get a lot of advice and some of it will appear contradictory initially but you will find it isn't!
Hornby R8072 and R8073 can be used as a direct replacement of the older points R612 and R613. The newer ones aren't true 'electrofrog' points as they still have a plastic frog, but the switching rails are kept live via little pieces of wire connecting them permanently to the rails. Older points can be converted.
As suggested, fully electrofrog points would be better, but if space and budget doesn't allow this then I think they are reasonable alternative. The plastic 'dead' area is quite small.
Brian was typing as I was - he got in first! His advice is, always the best advice!
Welcome to the forum! You're right, you will get a lot of advice and some of it will appear contradictory initially but you will find it isn't!
Hornby R8072 and R8073 can be used as a direct replacement of the older points R612 and R613. The newer ones aren't true 'electrofrog' points as they still have a plastic frog, but the switching rails are kept live via little pieces of wire connecting them permanently to the rails. Older points can be converted.
As suggested, fully electrofrog points would be better, but if space and budget doesn't allow this then I think they are reasonable alternative. The plastic 'dead' area is quite small.
Brian was typing as I was - he got in first! His advice is, always the best advice!
Re: Just starting out
Just to note... It is not usual practice to fit Hornby Electro point clips item R8232 when using Analogue DC, unless their use is fully understood - IRJs are then normally fitted to both Vee rail ends. Fitting these clips will not make an Insulated frog point an Electrofrog one! There is still a large piece of plastic making up the frog which the loco can still stall on, unlike real electrofrog points where the frog is made of metal rail. The Hornby clips simply allow the two moving switch rails to become permanently connected to their adjacent stock rail and pass power out via the Vee rails in both directions regardless of point position. IRJs will normally need to be fitted unless the operator is happy with all tracks live.
The clips are designed for DCC use where the tracks leading away from the points they are fitted onto remain live regardless of the points blade position in that they overcome the self isolating feature of Insulated frog points. Note also that Peco do not recommend them to be fitted to any of their points, though they will with care fit if required.
The clips are designed for DCC use where the tracks leading away from the points they are fitted onto remain live regardless of the points blade position in that they overcome the self isolating feature of Insulated frog points. Note also that Peco do not recommend them to be fitted to any of their points, though they will with care fit if required.
Re: Just starting out
Hi,
Firstly welcome to the forum - lots of experience and great advice available here from people far more knowledgeable than me, however as one who is only a few years into this hobby and still to finish the build of his first layout, I would like to offer one simple thought.........although this is a published track plan be careful not to fall into the rookie trap of filling in every available space with track.
As you get more into the hobby you may want to build scenery and add buildings / roads and other features in order to make your layout more like the real thing, and it is at this point you may start to wish you had left adequate space - I talk from personal experience.
That apart, I wish you every success with your layout and look forward to see how it progresses.........and remember all the silly questions have been probably asked already ( I know that I can claim at least a few), so don't be shy in asking for help.......good luck
Firstly welcome to the forum - lots of experience and great advice available here from people far more knowledgeable than me, however as one who is only a few years into this hobby and still to finish the build of his first layout, I would like to offer one simple thought.........although this is a published track plan be careful not to fall into the rookie trap of filling in every available space with track.
As you get more into the hobby you may want to build scenery and add buildings / roads and other features in order to make your layout more like the real thing, and it is at this point you may start to wish you had left adequate space - I talk from personal experience.
That apart, I wish you every success with your layout and look forward to see how it progresses.........and remember all the silly questions have been probably asked already ( I know that I can claim at least a few), so don't be shy in asking for help.......good luck
Re: Just starting out
Welcome to the forum. Friendly helpful bunch on here, enjoy.
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