Model Railway Forum

I've got myself an old Hornby class 37 in the blue and yellow (always wanted one as a kid) and I need some wagons to pair it with.

I really can't decide on what to get, I want to go for coal or mineral but bought a R235 45T open OBA wagon in brown and really like it.

The questions are,
Do I get a load of hopper wagons or the OBA style?
Do I go for all the same colour or a mix of colours?
I can probably get away with 4/5 of the 'long wheelbase' wagons or do I go for shorter wagons and have more?

I know a lot of this is personal preference but interested in your views!

16T, 21T and 24T mineral wagons for coal were common to be seen in South Wales right through into the 1990's though not so many 16T versions were used by then (24T were generally the later survivors). In my area they were usually pulled by triple headed class 03's and were the unfitted types, but many lines like a few others near here did have the fitted types where 37's were more commonly used.
Short wheelbase vans of various types were also regularly seen with class 37's hauling them as were trains of Mk 1 coaches or pulling the occasional failed DMU.
82T bogie pallet vans with fertiliser in them were usually pulled by a class 47 in rakes of 14 vans. While most were labelled UKF, a few were all over BR brown and an occasional one in dirty blue with a furniture company logo on it was noticed. If a 47 was not available a 37 could occasionally be used, though not often.
37's were often used to pull the shorter 4 wheel oil trains but the 100T bogie oil trains of 11 bogie tankers a time were hauled by class 47's. Both these and the coal wagons were often so rusty and oily/dirty it was difficult to see their origional colours! The 1970's and the 1980's wagons and vans seen in South Wales at the time rarely ever were seen in anything but rusty or grimy condition.
Theexceptions in the late 1980's when the occasional long wheelbase Speedlink van was seen with its red coloured ends.
Merry-go-rounds in South Wales were almost exclusively used from the Cardiff Valleys coal mines to feed the power station at Aberthaw, where the locos used were fitted with slow speed control (E.g. a class 47 sub class, though I recall 37's were also used if I am not mistaken, especially after privatization came along, but one exciting train to be seen were at the time cllassed as "Britains heaviest freight" which were the iron ore trains with their large bogie wagons which Lima used to make in grey livery with one red end and were either hauled by double heading class 56's or if they were not available would be hauled by triple heading class 37's which was quite a sight to behold! These trains were hauled to Port Talbot where seriously beefy rails looking like code100 in depth were used on the main line in that area (Port Talbot to Newport area and beyond) to cope with the heavy weight of these trains.
Another aspect of the livery of the class 37 and features to note is that headcode boxes showing headcodes were used on locos before 1976. Locos running around the latter half of 1976 onwards for the next year (1977) were seen displaying 0O00 (Second character being the capital letter O and the others were the number "Zero". This change was made to display this instead of the traditional headcodes was due to the recommendations after the enquiry into "The Great Train Robbery" where I assume the robbers simply read the train headcode and contacted the signalman claiming they were the driver? After 1977 and from 1978 onwards the headcode blinds wefe replaced to display the two white dots with the usual black background.
During the early to mid 1980's, after many locos suffered the occasional broken glass on their headcode displays due to birds or animals or stones thrown at trains would break the glass, they decided to instead weld a plate with two holes instead which wdfe painted yellow, so those locos which had damaged their headcode glass would have this done but those which had not had their headcode boxes damaged continued as they were with the black background and the two white domino style illuminated dots with the old headcode bulb(s) used to illuminate the dots instead of illuminating the old headcode characters.
Regarding livery, large logo livery with class 37's wasnt really seen in South Wales until the late 1980's to the early 1990's as for some reason we seemed to bea livery behind, though I did see a rare sight of a large logo class 47 from around 1985 onwards. Nearly all 37's seen in my area were all of the standard small logo B.R. blue that we had certainly through the1970's through into the early 1990's when the last few were eventually painted into the various sub sector liveries (Usually coal), and all our class 37's were the two body styles of central headcode type with twin roof mounted horns. It was the Scottish class 37's that had the low mounted not so visible horns as they did this to prevent the horns being blocked in snow...An issue that even today in snowy conditions in my area of Wales, when snow comes out come the cloth stretchy material used to cover the horns and the BSI or Denler couplings used today are covered with purpose made bags.
Freightliner services in my way were usually hauled by class 47's in those days.
I hope this helps. I mentioned two body styles of class 37 used in my area both with the centrally mounted headcode. The one had the body wrapping around each buffer and the other had the body going straight above the buffers.
The first split headcode class 37 I ever saw in my area was an odd one and I saw it in the very last years of B.R. going into privatisation so I believe it was around 1989 or later and it was in B.R. blue small logo ivery and it had a single headcode body at one end of the loco and a split headcode body at the other! I heard it was rebuilt at some time with a replacement cab from a scrapped 37 after it was involved in an accident? I saw it pass through Llanelli station heading east.


Obviously in other areas of the UK one may see different loads that class 37's were used and different versions etc., so what I commonly saw in my area was different to what was seen in other areas of the country. I hope that tuis helps.
s regards to colours. It depends what was being hauled.
Example is unfitted (No brakes other than the handbrake so needed a brakevan at the rear) were painted grey. Brown was used to show they were fitted with brakes that wdre operated from the loco (Used to be vaccume operated but about the late 1980's onwards air brakes started to become the "Norm" ad they were faster operating.
Unfitted wagons that needed brake vans and we re run at reduced speed (Seem to remember up to 40mph?) were still in use in my area in the very late 1980's but by the time the early 1990's came in the last few had dissapeared.
It was around the same time or maybe about five to ten years later was the last time I saw a rake of short wheelbase B.R. brown vans and as I had been so used to seeing them in the past, I found it odd when I was standing on the main platform at Carmarthen station to find that when this train came in and settled in this same platform, that I found myself surrounded by a group of enthuasiastic people all recording the van numbers and these people had travelled far and wide just to see them. Little did I know that that was the last time I saw this previously common sight! Had I known I would have brought my camera!
Regarding merrygoround style wagons but these were of the previous type before the shiny bodied versions arrived, I did see rakes of these taken to Coed Bach washery near Kidwelly. While on the BP&GVR branch they could behauled by a cut down class 08, class 37's did haul them to Kidwelly, though I cant remember if class 37's were allowed up to the washeries (I believe I saw them go that far), but they certainly were not allowed any further up the line as only cut down locos (Reduced height) class 08's or previously class 03's were allowed further due to the low bridges at Pontnewydd and Pontyberem as the line was built in places on the former canal. (This line but when it ran to Burry Port which later closed and the branch link to Kidwelly was re-opened instead in the mid 1980's that I used to watch triple headed class 03's pass with a rake of 21and 24T unfitted and completsly rusty andscreaming (Due to daily having to be used through floods (Railway built on the old canal) which daily washed out the grease from the axleboxes which is why the rake of 50 to 60 wagonswould be screaming! Would occasionally see a 16T in the formation but not so often. Class 03's were used as they were diesel mechanical where any elecgrics were above footplate leven as the flooding would regularly flood above footplate level so the guard in the brakevan and the drivefs had to remember to keep their kitbags up high on the desks and not on the floor when working such trains!
When the branch to Kidwelly was re-opened instead (Closed during the 60's) which meant that the worst bits that flooded were avoided so they could use cut down class 08's instead. Prior to the cut down class 03's, many a steam loco would have to negotiate the last mile and a half on reserve steam alone to reach Burry Port as the flood would have put its fire completely out!

Mountain Goat, thank you so much for your detailed response.
It was really interesting reading and made me realise I've never seen a class 37 in the flesh?

As the 37 is going to spend most of its time in the 'Welsh quarry' section of our layout I'm going to go for the 21T mineral wagons.

Last question - All the same colour or different colours/condition?

Need to try and find a 37 around my way so I can see one in person....

Thanks again

Dave

Just looked and my son has a class 03, 21T mineral wagons it is then!

When I was doing my training for engine and coaches working, Initially we were trained to work the air conditioned Mk2's behind a class 37 though I didn't actually work the coaches as a guard until about five or six years later so had to take a refresher course where when I worked them they used class 50's. BUT during the training, I was told to climb into the cab of a class 37 that was in the Cardiff Canton depot at the time to demonstrate how poor the visibility drivefs had when working them, and the trainer was gradually walking backwards in front of the 37 while I was sitting on the drivers seat and I was told to shout to let everyone know when I first saw him out of the front windows. Do you know that he stopped at the position and when I climbed down from the cab, the trainer was almost the length of a whole coach length away from where the loco was!
The 37's lasted so long simply because of their reliability and longlivity. As a loco, other flat fronted classes were more practical in use for the general safety as don't forget that most loco workings involved working with guards or dedicated shuters and drivers had to know where when they were doing their duties such as changing points, operating crossings, coupling or ucoupling etc they were which is why it was common for drivers to pull down the side windows and lean out to take a look.
As far as I am aware, the last of the class 37's are still being used (Usually aftef many modifications and rebuilds over the years) though if there are a few being used they are not likely to remain for long. (I am out of touch these days on what is still running).
I do know that a few class 37 have found their way onto preserved railways so if one wants to see one, one may find it easier to find a preserved railway that has one than find out where and the laxt few on the main railway network might be used (As most that are left will most likely be used as a back up incase more modern locos such as class 66's etc may need a service etc).
Though I do not know if they are still being used, during my time on the railway 37's were still being used daily on the Cardiff Valleys lines pullingthe rake of four air conditioned MK coaches they kept at Canton Depot. (I believe back then they may have had two sets of coaches that they ran in lengths of four. One was a gards van which has to be part of any engine and coaches formation. (All passenger coach formations have to have a guards van in their formations as the guards van hax the handbrake along with the neccessary safety equipment needed aspart of working a train formation. Autocoaches would double up as guards vans and on preserved lines they may occasionally use a goods style guards van instead to comply with the passenger safety rules. I mention this because I have seen modellers model train formations that would not be allowed to run in real life. DMU's have their own equipment on board so guards simply use the back cab to work from).
Now itcomes to livery. It depends with your quarry line if the wagons being used are fitted or unfitted. If unfitted trains have to have a guards van at the back and the wagons would be in a grey livery. If you have fitted wagons (As in they have brake pipes that operate the brakes from the loco) then these are normally painted brown. These are the standard BR colours, though there were later exceptions. The diagonal white stripe on some wagons shows the end of the wagon that opens so it can be tipped (If needed).
Most older wagons still in use that I saw in the 1980's were so rusty that onecould hardly tell what colour they used to be!
Fitted wagons did not need a break van at the back, but if modelling trains earlier than the 1970's (Don't know the exact date that they changed the rules) than one may find that all goods trains had to have a break van regardless of if they were fitted or not, but generally if modelling in the 1970's onwards fitted goods trains did not need guards vans though guards were likely (If I recall correctly) travel in the back cab of the loco instead.

One can freely mix wagons as in 16, 21 and 24T wagons in the sameformation as this was often seen, and also formations of fitted and unfitted wagons could be seen though these were worked so the fitted wagons were coupled directly to the loco so their brakes would operate, and the unfitted wagons would be coupled on behind them and a brake van would be needed at the back, so on such formations it was loco first and then brown wagons and then grey and a brake van.

There were another type of wagon (Usually some 4 wheeled vans) that had white brake pipes to them.These were unfitted so only had the compulsary hand brakes on the side, but the pipes were fitted so that they could work in a fitted train formation so their pipe would pass on the braking to those wagons coupled behind them. There was a rule (If I remember correctly) where if one had more than a ratio of one white braked wagon to six fitted wagons in the formation one would class it as an unfitted train and would need a brake van at the back but if the formation was less than a one in six ratio than it could beworked as a fitted train.
I remember hearingfrom a guard how a guard got it wrong and worked a train all with white piped vans and assumed they were fitted, and so whe the driver wanted to stop he found he couldn't which resulted in an accident.

Unfitted trains would need to stop just before a steep downward gradient and the guard would get out and walk to the side of the train and pin down the handbrakes of some of the wagons. Naturally the steeper the hill, the more wagons they would have to have the brakes applied. Once at the bottom of the hill and they knew they had level track or a hill to climb, they would again stop to felease the brakes on the wagons so they could continue. Was quite an art to working these trains and knowing how many brakes to pin down and which ones to pin.
Once an older guard told me how he was working a train to Fishguard and the driver couldnot stop the train on time for him to get out to pin on some of the breaks for the downward descent towards the station. Lucky the station crossing gate keeper heard the driver sounding the horn and auickly closed the gates (Today there are barriers operated by the train going over a treadle in the one direction and guards have to operate them by pushing a button around 45 seconds to a minute before they are due to leave the platform (If one presses the button exactly on time, one will leave the platform a minute late!)
The loco and wagons on this day camedown out ofcontrol at great speed. The guards vans and the loco brakes were locked, but the force of the unfittedwagons going down the hill wefe too much. They went through thestation platforn at approximately 40 mph where the guard jumped out and hit one of the canopy columns and broke his arm. The train passed the platform and came to a halt just before it would have plunged into the water. The driver had remained on board. It was a close call!

Drs are still running a few class 37s on RHT (Rail Head Treatment) trains.

I like the idea of brown then grey and a brake van.

Mountain Goat, great stories and information. Thanks.

There are plenty of useful photographic books on the subject that cover many regions of the UK where the authors and friends took photographs of the railways in their area or other areas during the time. One good one for South Wales which came out in the mid 1980's where the photos were mostly taken in the early '80's was called "Western Region In Wales". This was an excellent record of what was seen in this area and what type of trains were seen, where and whenwith a record of their locomotive numbers in the description. This excellent book and others like it give excellent insight into what it was like to see the trains passing in those days.
Some books were specifically about certain classes of loco, but I personally found these to be too restrictive. I preferred books that were more of a general photographic account like the book I mentioned above if you can find a copy secondhand. The photos maybe black and white but they are really good photos and while the main gist of the book was to record the more popular locos and sights, he also covered some rarer visitors into the area just to complete the picture, and my general aim as a B.R. blue modeller (Before I decided to model in 0-16.5 instead) was to have a few models of the more popular classes like 37's, 47's, 08's, 03's, DMU's etc, and then buy an example of just one of the rarer locos seen.
I would rather buy locos and stock that ran better in the correct formations (E.g. Lima Mk1 coaches and if re-wheeled the later Triang Mk1 coaches or Hornby Mk2's etc which all ran faultlessly even if pushed through complex pointwork at speed, then run more highly detailed modern items which may look more highly detailed but their ability to keep on the rails was just not up to my expectations.

One issue was trying to squeeze proper length trains on a limited space of layout, and one very useful space saving idea which gave the "Look" of the prototype but enabled me to fit such a train in my platforms was when I modelled a HST with its set of seven coaches (In the BR days the ones used in Wales were all seven car sets inbetween the two powercars where the buffet car had its passenger seating pointing towards the standard class and not the seating pointing towards the first class which the First group did when they took over in privatization and ran them with 8 coaches instead (Virgin ran theirs with six coaches and at one point did have a service to Swansea for a few years in the early to mid 2000's)).
But the model coaches I used were the older shorter Hornby type which were great space savers, but I preferred using Lima for the powercar and dummy car as the Lima powercar had a little more "Grunt" to pull the train than the older Hornby modes did even though I slightly preferred the overall look of the older model of the Hornby HST as they were modelled on what they looked like in the earlier years (Very early 1980's if I recall correctly or late'70's) while Limas example had the look of a mid 80's version where they added the extra roof cowling and plated up the rear guards windows in the power cars.
By running the HST using the shorter older Hornby MK3 coaches, I was able to get thelook of a "Proper" formation that was actually around a foot and a bit shorter overall than if I had used the scale length coaches.

But get the book if you can (Western Region in Wales) which has a red cover as it isan excellent photographic record. which covers most of the lines in South Wales that were operating during that time as it is really worth a look.

I will like to say that modelling the time period of around 1980 to 1983 is the easiest time period to model for South Wales as later than that and one starts to hit the large logo livery mixed with ths horrible executive greys that came in, and modelling a few years earlier and one has the issues of having to get the headcode box characters right for the trains one runs. The period of about 1982 to 1983 also saw the largest variety of classes of loco. Sadly the diesel hydraulics had gone but one had things like class 33's class 25's, the occasional rare class 40, and sometimes class 45's and 46's which gave way for the Western Region in Wales to be one of the more popular destinations for train spotters! It really was an exciting time to live in where one would come across triple headed class 03's working the Burry Port & Gwendraeth Line or doulble headed class 56's pulling iron ore trains in and out of Port Talbot for the massive steel works there, or even if the class 56's were not available, triple headed class 37's were used!

Just for your interest, a shot of one of my 37s with a small rank of 16 ton wagons

I think they look ok, although I know the brake van is not strictly correct

Thanks for the photo Phil S,

I thought the 16 Ton wagons might look a bit small but they look great.

As they are grey they need the brake van, I’m learning

What’s wrong with that brake van Phil?

Think the van it's self is ok, but I don't think it should have the yellow panel just below the roof.
Not 100% sure though, maybe someone else can clarify that for us.