Model Railway Forum

Hi

I started my DCC layout about ten months ago and all has mostly been working ok. I seem to be having a spate of points not changing polarity in the last few weeks. I have changed a couple of SEEPs but they still aren’t working. I change them through a Toggle switch arrangement. Any bright ideas?

Is there an easy way of testing whether a SEEP is working properly?

Thanks

Tim

The built in switch on Seeps is notoriously unreliable. On DCC you are better off fitting a frog juicer to the points and just use the switch for something non critical like a panel light.

Alternatively use a Gaugemaster GM500 wired with the point to change the polarity instead.

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/catal ... t/?q=gm500

A lot cheaper than a frog juicer.

Tim F wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 6:32 pm Hi

I started my DCC layout about ten months ago and all has mostly been working ok. I seem to be having a spate of points not changing polarity in the last few weeks. I have changed a couple of SEEPs but they still aren’t working. I change them through a Toggle switch arrangement. Any bright ideas?

Is there an easy way of testing whether a SEEP is working properly?

Thanks

Tim

Therea are some good suggestions being offered in earlier posts. However, what I would like to know is the answers to some basic questions before going further.
A) What is the voltage and current rating of the power supply feeding the Seeps?
B) Is a CDU (Capacitor Discharge Unit) being used in the main feed between power supply and switches?
C) Confirm the "Toggle Switches" are of the momentary sprung to centre Off type (On)-Off-(On)?
D) What size of wire used to feed the switches, plus the two wires to the motors A and B tabs and the return C connections?

Hi Brian

Voltage is 16v

Yes a CDU is installed

Toggle switches are SPDT On - off - on but need a positive push to go between the three positions. Obviously move to Off once the point has changed

Wire is 16/0.2 for wires except some frog wires which are 7/0.2

I am wondering whether there might be a short or two in the system?

Any help and advice welcomed although not sure I can afford 28 tortoise, cobalts or other right now

Tim F wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:25 pm Hi Brian

Voltage is 16v

Yes a CDU is installed

Toggle switches are SPDT On - off - on but need a positive push to go between the three positions. Obviously move to Off once the point has changed

Wire is 16/0.2 for wires except some frog wires which are 7/0.2

I am wondering whether there might be a short or two in the system?

Any help and advice welcomed although not sure I can afford 28 tortoise, cobalts or other right now

Hi

Firstly, the toggle switches should not lock into the On position. They need to be sprung to centre Off type so as they only provide a brief pulse of power to any solenoid motor connected to them.
The wiring size is good.
The use of a CDU is excellent.
Track feed and frog feed wires are good in 7/0.2mm.

Seeps need to be 100% accurate positioned under the point. Here is the method i have used successfully many times.....
1) I prewire the Seep on the work bench with 16/0.2mm wire approx. 100mm to 150mm long and terminate the wires into one side of a terminal block. Minimum is three wires for A, B & C pads and if frog or other switching is used with a SEEP PM1 then the other three wires connect to D, E and F. So a six-way block is then required.
2) Lay point into its final position and then with a 1.0 dia. drill make two holes through the baseboard with each hole directly in line with the ends of the points moving stretcher (Tie) bar, move point to other direction to make that hole.
3) Now with the point held centrally open (In OO I use two short pieces of 16/0.2mm wire in between the two point blades) drill another 1.0mm dia hole through the drive pin hole in the stretcher bar right through to the underside of the baseboard.
4) Now underneath the baseboard you should have three 1.0mm dia. holes. With a pencil and rule draw a straight line connecting all three holes.
5) Take the drawn line out further by some 10 to 15mm each side of the outer two holes.
6) Mark a centre line on the Seep motor long ways on each end of the SEEPs PCB and in line with the drive pin.
7) With the point removed, drill either a single 9mm dia. hole or 2 x 4mm holes side by side on each side of the central hole and open them up into a 4mm x 8-9mm elongated slot where the drive pin hole was drilled.
8) Clean up drilling area and refit point ensuring it moves freely over and back by finger.
9) Refit the two centralizing pieces of wire to the two point blades.
10) Back underneath, clean up the drive pin hole to remove all rough drilling swarf and then fit Seep motor drive pin into the hole in the stretcher bar, if possible, get another person to hold the pin in the point, but if you're on your own use a clamp like ideally a Bulldog clip or even a strong clothes peg.
11) Now align the Seeps central marks to the previously drawn pencil line on the baseboard underside. Exactly centre the Seep (i use a converted wooden pug for this - see link below) and carefully mark the two screw holes.
12) Using suitable wood screws fit the motor in position but DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN the two screws. back them off a half turn if necessary.
13) Remove the two spacers in the point blades and allow the point to move left and right.
14) Underneath and by finger on the underside of the drive pin move the Seep and its point over and back, no resistance should be felt other than the over centre points spring and the point should "pop" over and back correctly.
15) Cut off surplus drive pin to nearly flush with the top of the stretcher bar as possible. I do not recommend using a Dremel and cutting disc as this will get the pin too hot and can easily melt the plastic stretcher bar. Instead I use a cheap pair of large (7 inch) wire cutters or special piano wire cutters to trim the drive pin.
16) Once satisfied, connect power feed wires to terminal block and wire frog or other switching as required. Test motor/point combination on power and relax in the knowledge it works!

Items needed...
Drill
1.0mm drill bit.
9mm dia or 4mm drill bit.
Pencil.
Rule or straight edge.
Bulldog clip or strong peg etc.
Two short pieces of 16/0.2mm wire (for OO gauge points) about 15mm long each.
Wood screws for fixing motor and a screwdriver.
Additional handy item to make is a SEEP centring peg. See this item. https://www.modelrailforum.com/threads/ ... ost-652118

Brian

That is the best and most comprehensive instructions for installation I have read. I will print that off and keep it as the definitive advice. Perhaps, Gaugemaster should include them in the packaging. In the main, I have followed those instructions and will look to replace the switches. I did use a 3d printed template which has worked well for positioning.

My question though is why the frog should suddenly only go live in one direction?

Thanks

Tim

Possibly the SEEPs switch isn't moving correctly? Especially if the SEEP isn't 100% centralised to the point above.
Worth also checking that the little washer is still pressing down onto the PCB tracks. i.e. it bridges F to E one way and F to D in the other direction.

Tim F wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 6:32 pm Hi

I started my DCC layout about ten months ago and all has mostly been working ok. I seem to be having a spate of points not changing polarity in the last few weeks. I have changed a couple of SEEPs but they still aren’t working. I change them through a Toggle switch arrangement. Any bright ideas?

Is there an easy way of testing whether a SEEP is working properly?

Thanks

Tim

The problem seems to have surfaced in the past few weeks. I have had a similar problem cured with a little electrolube applied to the solenoid shaft. Are the point motors driven by a DCC encoder?
Mike

Not according to the previous posts that refers to Toggle switches (On)-Off-(On) and a CDU.