KR Models
KR Models
Hi,has anyone bought a GT3 English Electric Gas Turbine model from this newish manufacturer,I had seen them on Rails of Sheffieds website but didn't get one but have just bought one off eBay ,just waiting for it to be delivered,I don't doubt the quality of the item as it was given good appraisal by a model train mag ,I'm just wondering if anyone else has got one .
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Mountain Goat
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Re: KR Models
It will be interesting to see what you think.
Was the prototype used on passenger trains, or frieight or both? Seen pictures of it but have not seen pictures of it pulling anything. Obviously it will be for trial purposes on a testing route that also had the option of plenty of back up locos in the area if things did not go to plan whatever it pulled. Testing new designs may not have been easy as not everything always goes to plan.
I am told though that gas turbine locos are incredibly noisy in operation from a loco driver who saw them in action. He said they sounded like a jet aircraft! They were good at long distance non-stopping routes so America had more success with gas turbine, but Britains lines involve a lot of stopping and starting where gas turbines used a lot of fuel to do which is why only a few prototype designs were tried. Nice things though.
It also demonstrates how forward thinking the UK was in those days to risk designing and trialling locos they were not sure would be a succes or not, as to design and build prototypes are incredibly expensive undertakings which may or may not work.
I was fascinated by a trial of two little identical shunters where one was a diesel hydraulic and the other was a diesel electric and they wanted to put them both in service to see which one would end up being the most successful which is why apart from the transmissions, both diesel locomotives were built identical as much as possible in design.
Was the prototype used on passenger trains, or frieight or both? Seen pictures of it but have not seen pictures of it pulling anything. Obviously it will be for trial purposes on a testing route that also had the option of plenty of back up locos in the area if things did not go to plan whatever it pulled. Testing new designs may not have been easy as not everything always goes to plan.
I am told though that gas turbine locos are incredibly noisy in operation from a loco driver who saw them in action. He said they sounded like a jet aircraft! They were good at long distance non-stopping routes so America had more success with gas turbine, but Britains lines involve a lot of stopping and starting where gas turbines used a lot of fuel to do which is why only a few prototype designs were tried. Nice things though.
It also demonstrates how forward thinking the UK was in those days to risk designing and trialling locos they were not sure would be a succes or not, as to design and build prototypes are incredibly expensive undertakings which may or may not work.
I was fascinated by a trial of two little identical shunters where one was a diesel hydraulic and the other was a diesel electric and they wanted to put them both in service to see which one would end up being the most successful which is why apart from the transmissions, both diesel locomotives were built identical as much as possible in design.
Budget modelling in 0-16.5...
Re: KR Models
Hi Mountain Goat,,apparently they had built this loco and then it was deemed uneconomical compared to the diesel powered locos that were coming in at the time so never came into service .
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Mountain Goat
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Re: KR Models
Probably why I have not seen any photos of it pulling trains. Interesting though.
I guess it would be a bit like using a V8 Range Rover to do ones shopping! Ok if one has plenty of money and fuel... But the real railways had to be practical with their budget.
What puzzles me is that they did not rhen see if they could convert it to a diesel hydraulic or diesel electric just to put it to use, but this may eventually cost more in servicing an unusual loco that needed unusual parts...
Would have worked better if they sold it to America or some country that worked long distance trains... As if they are able to run long distances without stopping and starting, their fuel economy starts to be closer to a diesel. Sadly few countries can run trains with out the need for stopping and starting along their journey.
I guess it would be a bit like using a V8 Range Rover to do ones shopping! Ok if one has plenty of money and fuel... But the real railways had to be practical with their budget.
What puzzles me is that they did not rhen see if they could convert it to a diesel hydraulic or diesel electric just to put it to use, but this may eventually cost more in servicing an unusual loco that needed unusual parts...
Would have worked better if they sold it to America or some country that worked long distance trains... As if they are able to run long distances without stopping and starting, their fuel economy starts to be closer to a diesel. Sadly few countries can run trains with out the need for stopping and starting along their journey.
Budget modelling in 0-16.5...
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Mike Parkes
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Re: KR Models
Pictures do exist of GT3 on trains albeit ecs
https://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/getobject?rnum=L3522
https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/e ... ne-history
https://www.railwayarchive.org.uk/getobject?rnum=L3522
https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/e ... ne-history
Re: KR Models
The problem with gas turbines is that they use almost as much fuel idling as they do at full power due to the power needed to run the compressor !
As an example the turbine on GT3 produced 19,800 Horse power but 17,100 HP was absorbed by the compressor leaving 2,700 HP for traction purposes.
The compressor needed to run all the time so a lot of fuel was required even at idle.
GT3 was designed to look like a conventional steam loco with tender and centre cab and needed a turntable at the end of each run.
By the time it was running many turntables had gone out of service which limited the loco area of operation.
After tests in the Wirral and North Wales coast it was used to haul empty coaching stock between Leicester and London on the old Great Central line plus some dynamometer test trains.
The Union Pacific turbines were the most successful because they ran in mountain areas where they could run on full power up the hils and then shut down the turbine and use a Diesel engine to provide dynamic braking exitation and other power needs.
The sound of these UP turbines is described as a "Roar" with no jet "Whine" as the rotational speed was fairly low for a Turbine - 6,900 RPM .
Any videos of the UP turbines with jet whine is likely to be dubbed onto a silent film as genuine sound films do not sound like that.
What finished off the UP turbines was the increasing cost of fuel which was a low grade fuel called "Bunker C" which was later found to have other uses and there for a price increase.
Sources.
Prototype Locomotives by Robert Tufnell. ( GT3)
Turbines Westward by Thos. R. Lee. ( UP Turbines)
Colin.
Photo of GT3 under test.
https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrrm2448.htm
Other photos of GT3 in the "Testing" section of the website
As an example the turbine on GT3 produced 19,800 Horse power but 17,100 HP was absorbed by the compressor leaving 2,700 HP for traction purposes.
The compressor needed to run all the time so a lot of fuel was required even at idle.
GT3 was designed to look like a conventional steam loco with tender and centre cab and needed a turntable at the end of each run.
By the time it was running many turntables had gone out of service which limited the loco area of operation.
After tests in the Wirral and North Wales coast it was used to haul empty coaching stock between Leicester and London on the old Great Central line plus some dynamometer test trains.
The Union Pacific turbines were the most successful because they ran in mountain areas where they could run on full power up the hils and then shut down the turbine and use a Diesel engine to provide dynamic braking exitation and other power needs.
The sound of these UP turbines is described as a "Roar" with no jet "Whine" as the rotational speed was fairly low for a Turbine - 6,900 RPM .
Any videos of the UP turbines with jet whine is likely to be dubbed onto a silent film as genuine sound films do not sound like that.
What finished off the UP turbines was the increasing cost of fuel which was a low grade fuel called "Bunker C" which was later found to have other uses and there for a price increase.
Sources.
Prototype Locomotives by Robert Tufnell. ( GT3)
Turbines Westward by Thos. R. Lee. ( UP Turbines)
Colin.
Photo of GT3 under test.
https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrrm2448.htm
Other photos of GT3 in the "Testing" section of the website
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Mountain Goat
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Re: KR Models
Thank you for the links. I am puzzled as to which loco he saw. It was not GT 3 or any of the GWR engines as those were built too early, but he did say that it had a gas turbine engine in it and it made a lot of noise. I can see a picture of it in my mind as I saw it in a book or a magazine, but I can't find it anywhere on the internet.
He often saw experimental locos passing by as he worked as a driver in the Derby area in his younger days as a driver (He retired about ten years ago, so his younger days would have been in the 1970's to '80's as a gues).
Was it something to do with HST or APT experiments?
He often saw experimental locos passing by as he worked as a driver in the Derby area in his younger days as a driver (He retired about ten years ago, so his younger days would have been in the 1970's to '80's as a gues).
Was it something to do with HST or APT experiments?
Budget modelling in 0-16.5...
Re: KR Models
If this Turbine was seen in the 70s/80s then it was probably the APT(E) which first ran in June 1972.
GT3 was retired in 1962, WR 18000 in 1960, and WR Metrovick 18100 in 1960.
18000 still survives but as an ex-test vehicle and I saw it some years ago at Barrow Hill . Not sure where it is now.
18100 was used as a driver training loco for the 25Kv electrification scheme but GT3 was scrapped.
I have just finished reading the book " Pistons to Blades" which is the history of Rover Gas Turbines of which 10 were fitted in the APT(E), 8 for traction via electric drive and two as APU for lighting and instrumentation.
These turbines which were 350 HP each ran at 38,200 rpm which would account for the "Jet whine" noise heard where the larger UP and other turbines ran at a much lower speed. I read somewhere that the the jet whine was due to the tips of the compressor or turbine going supersonic !
Colin.
GT3 was retired in 1962, WR 18000 in 1960, and WR Metrovick 18100 in 1960.
18000 still survives but as an ex-test vehicle and I saw it some years ago at Barrow Hill . Not sure where it is now.
18100 was used as a driver training loco for the 25Kv electrification scheme but GT3 was scrapped.
I have just finished reading the book " Pistons to Blades" which is the history of Rover Gas Turbines of which 10 were fitted in the APT(E), 8 for traction via electric drive and two as APU for lighting and instrumentation.
These turbines which were 350 HP each ran at 38,200 rpm which would account for the "Jet whine" noise heard where the larger UP and other turbines ran at a much lower speed. I read somewhere that the the jet whine was due to the tips of the compressor or turbine going supersonic !
Colin.
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